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Author Topic: Syrian refugees.  (Read 2404 times)

Offline seacommander

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Syrian refugees.
« on: 24 November, 2015, 09:46:39 AM »
In view of the revelation that a number of the perpertrators of the recent atrocities in Paris were committed by persons masquerading as Syrian refugees is it justified that our government proceeds with its policy to allow 20,000 refugees into the UK?

Offline siasl

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #1 on: 24 November, 2015, 10:07:29 AM »
Personally, I don't think we're taking enough of them, or offering them enough support when they are here, yet the government is cutting spending all over the place, which is harming the efforts to help these people.

Courtesy of GWB and Tony, we have helped to create the monster that is ISIS/IS/ISIL by destabilising and toppling nations. We should clear up after our messes.

For the 20K we are taking, I fear they will be ill-served by this country. They are said to be among the most vulnerable of the refugees in the Syrian camps, which means we are taking in abused women and children, for the most part. This is all very laudable in intention, however I am told by senior folks within the charity sector that all these refugees will only be offered a single years support. This support is to give them language skills, counselling and "on-boarding" into the British culture. I suspect the refugees we do take will require much more assistance than we are promising to repair the damage done to their minds, bodies and souls.

Perhaps you think a year is enough to be able to learn enough to get around in a strange, foreign place. But think how hard it would be if, before you went, your homes were destroyed, your friends and family killed, and on your journey you were repeatedly raped and/or beaten by those promising you aid, yet taking more of your belongings and dignity. These are the people we are taking.

For those that are not taken in by another nation, they are left suffering brutal lives, frequently shortened, in appalling conditions in the camps.

The Washington Post published an interesting article on a similar question last week.

Sorry if this comes across a bit ranty :)

Offline seacommander

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #2 on: 24 November, 2015, 10:49:54 AM »
I am just posing the question siasl and seeking opinion. I am all for helping where the help is genuinely needed but am, I think like many others I have spoken to, merely expressing some justifiable concern.

Offline P-Kasso2

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #3 on: 24 November, 2015, 11:44:04 AM »
I think it is totally wrong (but very understandable) to want to ask if we shouldn't cut down immigration figures because a few terrorists are sneaking in under the cover of a tidal wave of thousands and thousands of immigrants.

OK, those few terrorists are highly dangerous and know no limit to their violence but they are still just a few among hundreds of thousands of genuine, desperate refugees and immigrants.

What are the odds? One terrorist worming their way in per ten thousand genuine immigrants?

With those odds I think we still have to try to accept that the good of the many far outweighs the threat of a handful terrorists coming in, no matter how dangerous those terrorists are.

To 'blanket-ban' all immigrants would be another (typical) knee-jerk reaction from a government that has so far shown an amazingly callous and heartless approach to all down-trodden and needy people whether they're home-grown British families or displaced foreigners.

Mercy and compassion should be the guide rather than fear (even though that fear is sadly very well based).

Compassion is a vital part of what Democracy is all about...but I can all too easily see that recent events are beginning to threaten the whole viability of taking a caring, civilised approach. The end of Democracy is nigh?

I don't at all like the idea of stricter border checks and more draconian vetting of individual would-be immigrants...but desperate times do give rise to desperate measures.

On balance, put me down as reluctantly but extremely split on this question.
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Offline seacommander

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #4 on: 24 November, 2015, 11:48:38 AM »
I think it is totally wrong (but very understandable) to want to ask if we shouldn't cut down immigration figures because a few terrorists are sneaking in under the cover of a tidal wave of thousands and thousands of immigrants.


Thanks for your views P-K, however, I do disagree that it is wrong to ask the question. Debate is engendered by an initial question. The question I posed is being asked, even though not always spoken, by many people. We must not be afraid to ask these questions and debate the issues.
« Last Edit: 24 November, 2015, 11:56:14 AM by seacommander »

Offline siasl

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #5 on: 24 November, 2015, 12:03:21 PM »
I am just posing the question siasl and seeking opinion. I am all for helping where the help is genuinely needed but am, I think like many others I have spoken to, merely expressing some justifiable concern.
Don't worry - I wasn't ranting at you for asking the question as your phrasing doesn't give any indication as to your view on the matter. I took it as a philosophical question :)

In my view, the media is not helping the situation as it is painting a very biased view of the situation.

Offline P-Kasso2

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #6 on: 24 November, 2015, 12:06:14 PM »
I think it is totally wrong (but very understandable) to want to ask if we shouldn't cut down immigration figures because a few terrorists are sneaking in under the cover of a tidal wave of thousands and thousands of immigrants.


Thanks for your views P-K, however, I do disagree that it is wrong to ask the question. Debate is engendered by an initial question. The question I posed is being asked, even though not always spoken, by many people. We must not be afraid to ask these questions and debate the issues.

I agree wholeheartedly SC and that is what we are doing here and what others are doing everywhere.

It is a bitter shame that we can't all be merrily debating lighter and more pleasant matters - but the fact that a war-like and consolidated campaign is being waged against us in the West cannot be ignored.

Oh, that it were it different!
« Last Edit: 08 December, 2016, 12:35:43 PM by P-Kasso2 »
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rentdresqak

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Syrian refu
« Reply #7 on: 06 December, 2016, 09:26:24 AM »
It has been suggested that European policy of allowing Syrian refugees is at fault for the terror attacks in Paris:


WinePusher:

Offline siasl

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #8 on: 06 December, 2016, 02:49:50 PM »
Given that most of the attackers were French or Belgian, I doubt it had any bearing on the matter - they were not refugees.

As they were EU citizens, they found it easy to cross borders unchallenged - but this is not a "fault" but instead something that just helped make the job easier for them. The "fault" lies deeper than this - along the lines of Western interference in the Middle East creating a situation where radical nutters can flourish, but I can well imagine that even this is over simplified.

Offline Cosmos

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #9 on: 06 December, 2016, 08:25:14 PM »
I think it's very important that anybody who seeks to live in another country go through the right channels when doing so. It is not fair to other people who trying to emigrate. Even though they may be in a horrible situation, refugees should be processed in an orderly manner just as other emigrants are. There are plenty of displaced persons in refugee camps in Jordan who could be considered more eligible because they have been waiting longer.

The general idea that refugees should be accepted is a good one, as long as they are genuine refugees. I think that the idea of someone staying indefinitely should be reconsidered. One day there may be peace in their country and they should have the opportunity to return to their homeland.
Bare barbarer barberer rabarbera bra .

Offline crabfoot

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #10 on: 13 December, 2016, 07:17:41 AM »
Whereas I am, in principle, in favour of supporting efforts to help refugees, I am not in favour of them coming to the UK for several reasons.

One reason is that they take up jobs.  I don't care if they are honest, hard working and industrious.  They are competitive.  This denies opportunities to indigenous people who are honest, hard working and industrious, but lack the skills to present themselves well at interviews.  If there were less choice in the employment market those people would get jobs, but they often are left "on the dole" until they are unemployable.

Another reason is that this country is very welcoming to foreigners. The anti-prejudice laws we have are properly enforced. In other countries, lip service is given to such laws, which are supposed to be in force across Europe. Incidents which in this country would result in a 3 month jail sentence are dismissed as "naughty talk" in France or Spain, for example.  That is one big reason why those people in the French "camps" keep trying to get here. They perceive France as a hostile place, because it is!

To my mind, the Middle East is a place full of bickering and stupid blind loyalties to factions that want the county run their way. Go back to before WWII, and you will find that the population in Syria, Iraq and Iran had a majority of Muslims, but the Muslims were in the minority if you added together the Christian and Jewish people in those countries.  Where are the descendants of those Christians and Jews now?

Nobody has found a solution to the intrinsic problem, which is that people always want to be governed by their own kind. If the choice is between a just but foreign regime or a local high-mukamuk who is as bent as a corkscrew, people will always pick the local man who professes to adhere to their ideals.

Setting up a "protectorate government" has been tried in the past, and failed within a few years of the departure of  the resented foreigners. 

"Taking people in" because they are suffering is only humane, but it still avoids the problem. Their land is left in the hands of the wicked, and "taking the sufferers in" increases the "wicked majority" in the land they leave.

Offline P-Kasso2

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Re: Syrian refugees.
« Reply #11 on: 24 December, 2016, 12:58:38 PM »
I find it hard to dispute the points you make in your post, Crabfoot...but I still think that it is a shining part of democracy that the better-off ought to help the worse off.

That to me is the bedrock of being human (human as in humane and humanitarian).

I know that many centuries of tribal wars and religious armed squabbles lie behind many of today's power struggles in the Middle East. What is new is that these long ingrained squabbles have now reached Europe instead of staying unnoticed in the desert.

I also know that the West has been instrumental in dominating politics in the area at least since the 1930's and the greed for oil. Reaping what one sows seems to have come full circle.

But I also know that if there is one thing history teaches us it is that there are usually better ways to solve a given problem...even new and unprecedented problems such unprecedented levels of immigration.

I find myself ignoring history and politics and instead asking myself (and anyone else who will listen) what would you do if you were a father of three kids in Syria now?

Your workplace has been bombed out of existence. You have no way to survive economically. Your home has been reduced to rubble. Barrel bombs and explosive shells and missiles are raining down with unbroken relentlessness. Your kids have been blinded, maimed or killed. Your wife, mother or daughter raped. Every one of your friends and relatives and all of your neighbours  have had to experience the same horrors. A whole city full of people you don't know are also going through the same heart-breaking terror. And still it goes on. What would you do?

I would get the hell out of there as soon as I could. I would try to flee to a country which could offer an end to the atrocities I'd had to undergo.

And I would hope there was a country that opened the door in welcome, if not in unconditional welcome then at least to open the door with humanitarian warmth and unconditional compassion. And food and shelter. And hope.

I cannot help realising also that the numbers killed by Muslim terrorists that we have experienced in Europe is a tiny amount compared to the massive daily death tolls in Syria that hundreds of thousands of refugees are desperately and understandably fleeing from.

Kicking someone when they are already so helplessly down is not anything I want to be a part of. Kicking refugee families can only be despicable.

If that means letting in some undercover terrorists then I am afraid that it has to be so. I cannot see any other alternative, at least not a noble, honourable alternative.








« Last Edit: 24 December, 2016, 01:18:15 PM by P-Kasso2 »
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Offline AaronDieKs

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Syrian refugees
« Reply #12 on: 10 September, 2017, 08:58:52 PM »
As a result of the Paris attacks on Friday and the threat by ISIS to attack Washington 23 states are trying to close the door on new Syrian refugees.

From the Washington Post as of 6:09PM:

Governors of Illinois, Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Maine, Iowa, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Arizona, Indiana, Massachusetts, Idaho, Louisiana, Michigan, Alabama, Texas, Kansas, Georgia, Mississippi, and Arkansas a majority of them Republican have said that they are seeking to stop the relocation of new Syrian refugees to their states out of fear that violent extremists posing as refugees might gain entry to the country.

Shame the good people trying to flee have to suffer because of these terrorists.